Rooney Rule - discussion, keep it respectful

[Danchinho]

Out of interest, why are so many posters upset with the Rooney rule?
A quick cursory search by me indicates only around 20-25% of players are white but around 75% of coaches are white and all the majority owners are white.
Those numbers don’t paint the prettiest of pictures tbh.

It does indicate a bias. By whom or for what reasons I couldn’t possibly say. Odd stats though.

Are the people on here or in general that are so upset by the rule people of colour or mostly/exclusively white?

[CWood24]

Out of interest, why are so many posters upset with the Rooney rule?
A quick cursory search by me indicates only around 20-25% of players are white but around 75% of coaches are white and all the majority owners are white.
Those numbers don’t paint the prettiest of pictures tbh.

It does indicate a bias. By whom or for what reasons I couldn’t possibly say. Odd stats though.

Are the people on here or in general that are so upset by the rule people of colour or mostly/exclusively white?

Simply because it is a hinderance in todays game i mean people like Ryan Clark & Bomani James now use it as a reason to claim racism when those Rooney rule candidates don't get the job

Apart from Vance Joseph was there another HC candidate that was an ethnic minority that you looked at & thought he could be the guy, even with Joseph there were question marks

Instead of trying to give ethnic candidates an advantage they should be investigating why do low numbers of ethnic minorities not transition into coaching

For mw it is a grass roots thing not an NFL thing the same thing happens in soccer

The biggest problem for me is though that a coach should be interviewed based on his ability to coach not on creed, colour, sex etc. No organisation should be told you have to interview a certain number of people before you hire the guy you want

[Danchinho]

Simply because it is a hinderance in todays game i mean people like Ryan Clark & Bomani James now use it as a reason to claim racism when those Rooney rule candidates don't get the job

Apart from Vance Joseph was there another HC candidate that was an ethnic minority that you looked at & thought he could be the guy, even with Joseph there were question marks

Instead of trying to give ethnic candidates an advantage they should be investigating why do low numbers of ethnic minorities not transition into coaching

For mw it is a grass roots thing not an NFL thing the same thing happens in soccer

Also a coach should be interview based on his ability to coach not on creed, colour, sex etc

Some people claiming (rightly or wrongly) that they didn’t get a job because of racism and that claim not being upheld is not a reason to scrap it.

Yes, you’re right, there has to be things to consider as to why there are fewer coaches at grass roots level who are non white.

In a country so historically steeped in prejudice though (as are the English btw) it’s impossible to rule that out either.

One could argue not many African Americans or Latinos or Polynesians don’t get into coaching at a lower level because the actual job prospects aren’t vey good. Some might do it for the love of it, some might entertain the idea of making a career out of it if possible. But if those prospects look bleak…

You can’t say if you’re good enough it doesn’t matter what colour you are when it’s so blatantly not the case for many aspects of your (and mine) societies.

There’s no imperative to hire anyone, just they get an interview. What’s the big deal? Has any sports team actively suffered just because they had to interview a minority?

How do non white players (by far the biggest proportion) feel about it?

[chucker]

There was a general question in the position coach thread about the Rooney Rule. Rather than having that thread overwhelmed by that discussion, I split that post and a couple of posts that followed into a separate thread with that question as the OP.

This topic has gotten heated at times in the past, please keep it all respectful and civil. It's fair to discuss whether we've met our Rooney Rule requirements in the coaching threads, but please keep comments about the rule itself in this thread so we keep those ones on topic.

Thanks.

[Attyla]

For me it is because it is selective. You do not include other minorities with the rule. A Korean coach or a special needs person does not satisfy the rule. Hispanics are represented among players and coaches yet there is no representation within the rule. What bothers me is, while yes black players make up the vast majority of the league, the notion that we are not truly wanting an inclusive coaching ranks. We are singling out two under represented groups. Blacks and women satisfy at least part of the rule and yet there are no women on any team.

For the rule to really want to support diversity, people with identified handicaps, Asian and Hispanics and others should be part of the rule. I am all for diversity in the league coaching staffs and also at the top level coaching positions, but don't be selective. If it "takes all of us" then make it about all of us.

[chucker]

For me it is because it is selective. You do not include other minorities with the rule. A Korean coach or a special needs person does not satisfy the rule. Hispanics are represented among players and coaches yet there is no representation within the rule. What bothers me is, while yes black players make up the vast majority of the league, the notion that we are not truly wanting an inclusive coaching ranks. We are singling out two under represented groups. Blacks and women satisfy at least part of the rule and yet there are no women on any team.

For the rule to really want to support diversity, people with identified handicaps, Asian and Hispanics and others should be part of the rule. I am all for diversity in the league coaching staffs and also at the top level coaching positions, but don't be selective. If it "takes all of us" then make it about all of us.

Asians and hispanics are part of the Rooney rule.

[Attyla]

Asians and hispanics are part of the Rooney rule.

Not what I saw, so what about Pacific Islanders. How about a deaf person. Do girls count for the HC? What about amputees?

Point is, the rule is selective and not intended to truly be inclusive.

[Opoponax50]

It's an uncomfortable rule, but it does help someone get a foot in the door for the HC spot, or least future consideration for a position coach or coordinator. I don't think organizations are as opposed to hiring a black head coach as they used to be--if at all. A different but similar example is the QB position. It's 100% skill based now.

The only question is whether a person can win games. It's the same with a head coach.

The problem is that if you get rid of the rule, it's going to stir up a hornet's nest. Also, it has to make me wonder about the dignity of a person who knows they're being given a cursory interview simply because of the rule.

It's a tough issue.

[chucker]

Not what I saw, so what about Pacific Islanders. How about a deaf person. Do girls count for the HC? What about amputees?

Point is, the rule is selective and not intended to truly be inclusive.

Women count. Pacific Islanders count. Basically everyone other than a white male is a minority under the rule. I'm not sure you've actually educated yourself enough to be able to evaluate whether or not it's selective.

[Be_Easy_25]

Out of interest, why are so many posters upset with the Rooney rule?
A quick cursory search by me indicates only around 20-25% of players are white but around 75% of coaches are white and all the majority owners are white.
Those numbers don’t paint the prettiest of pictures tbh.

It does indicate a bias. By whom or for what reasons I couldn’t possibly say. Odd stats though.

Are the people on here or in general that are so upset by the rule people of colour or mostly/exclusively white?

1. It doesn’t indicate bias at all. Sports, like the real world, are going to leave you with lopsided numbers as it relates to groups. Ex. 75% of the players are black. Is that because of bias? Somehow, we grandfather in that lopsided figure as being the way it is out of pure merit. We don’t extend the same courtesy to coaching decisions.

Blacks getting drafted? Merit.
Whites getting selected as coaches? Questions. Supposed smoke and possibly some fire there because there is smoke.

2. The sham interviews are embarrassing and no minority should take them. It’s beneath their dignity to do so. It’s beneath the dignity of a franchise’s ownership and brass to force them to interview somebody they don’t want as well.

3. Most people don’t believe qualified black candidates are in jeopardy of not getting hired. Most people don’t think DeMeco Ryans has his job because of this rule. Most people think Flores would have another job now if it weren’t for suing the NFL. He was a popular candidate while suing the NFL.

4. Finally, a lot of times the owner already has his guy in mind. Many hires are made this way in the NFL and in the real world. There is nothing morally wrong about wanting a person and seeking out that person to hire. There is no requirement that every hire be subject to some rigorous interviewing process in real life. As such, see #2 above.

[chucker]

First, as a white male, I don't entirely feel that it's my place to say there shouldn't be a rule like this.

I don't think the rule is ideal - but I'm not sure if there is an ideal solution. The reality is that the owners are a group of old white men and you might get biased hiring practices, either intentional or unintentional.

It sucks that guys get tagged as "just a Rooney candidate" sometimes. It does pressure teams to expand their reach a bit and gets a few guys in the interview room who otherwise might not have been on the list. Whether that helps or not is up for debate.

I guess my attitude is that it might not solve a problem, but it also might not be a problem. It slows down an interview process a bit, but it slows it down for every other team as well so it's likely that the same candidates are still available to the same number of teams.

It's a bit of a "meh" for me. I pay attention to it to be aware of where we are in the hiring process.

[Dr Death]

Out of interest, why are so many posters upset with the Rooney rule?
A quick cursory search by me indicates only around 20-25% of players are white but around 75% of coaches are white and all the majority owners are white.
Those numbers don’t paint the prettiest of pictures tbh.

It does indicate a bias. By whom or for what reasons I couldn’t possibly say. Odd stats though.

Are the people on here or in general that are so upset by the rule people of colour or mostly/exclusively white?

I'm not upset with it. I just don't feel it's a necessary thing in this day and time. There are minority coaches/head coaches and QB's all over the NFL. We have moved past the need for such a rule, IMO.

It also should have never been called the Rooney rule.... it should have been called the Davis rule. Al Davis did more than anyone in the NFL to help/promote minorities and women. The Raiders were the first on a few fronts to "see no color, race or gender" when hiring people for the organizaeion/NFL.

[Corleone]

1. It doesn’t indicate bias at all. Sports, like the real world, are going to leave you with lopsided numbers as it relates to groups. Ex. 75% of the players are black. Is that because of bias? Somehow, we grandfather in that lopsided figure as being the way it is out of pure merit. We don’t extend the same courtesy to coaching decisions.

Blacks getting drafted? Merit.
Whites getting selected as coaches? Questions. Supposed smoke and possibly some fire there because there is smoke.

2. The sham interviews are embarrassing and no minority should take them. It’s beneath their dignity to do so. It’s beneath the dignity of a franchise’s ownership and brass to force them to interview somebody they don’t want as well.

3. Most people don’t believe qualified black candidates are in jeopardy of not getting hired. Most people don’t think DeMeco Ryans has his job because of this rule. Most people think Flores would have another job now if it weren’t for suing the NFL. He was a popular candidate while suing the NFL.

4. Finally, a lot of times the owner already has his guy in mind. Many hires are made this way in the NFL and in the real world. There is nothing morally wrong about wanting a person and seeking out that person to hire. There is no requirement that every hire be subject to some rigorous interviewing process in real life. As such, see #2 above.

NFL guys will always hire the guy they think will help them win. Shedueur Sanders didn't slide to the 5th round because of racism, he slid to the 5th round because he sucks ass. White cornerbacks aren't bypassed because of racism, they're bypassed because they suck at playing cornerback.

The NFL needs to just stick to football. No more end zone messages, leaked emails and flamboyant halftime shows, get rid of the personal fouls for tapping a QB on a helmet or landing at his feet trying to tackle him. Roll back the clock 30 years on what the NFL used to be and the game would be much better off.

[Dr Death]

Some people claiming (rightly or wrongly) that they didn’t get a job because of racism and that claim not being upheld is not a reason to scrap it.

Yes, you’re right, there has to be things to consider as to why there are fewer coaches at grass roots level who are non white.

In a country so historically steeped in prejudice though (as are the English btw) it’s impossible to rule that out either.

One could argue not many African Americans or Latinos or Polynesians don’t get into coaching at a lower level because the actual job prospects aren’t vey good. Some might do it for the love of it, some might entertain the idea of making a career out of it if possible. But if those prospects look bleak…

You can’t say if you’re good enough it doesn’t matter what colour you are when it’s so blatantly not the case for many aspects of your (and mine) societies.

There’s no imperative to hire anyone, just they get an interview. What’s the big deal? Has any sports team actively suffered just because they had to interview a minority?

How do non white players (by far the biggest proportion) feel about it?

You don't find that to be even a slight bit demeaning to the person being interviewed, knowing they are only being interviewed to meet a rule?

[chucker]

You don't find that to be even a slight bit demeaning to the person being interviewed, knowing they are only being interviewed to meet a rule?

I try not to just call anyone "just a Rooney" candidate because I hope there's merit to some of these guys. Also, while people say it should be the "Davis Rule", Al Davis made a mockery of it by interviewing James Lofton for head coach about 5 times just to check the box. I don't think he gave a shit about the rule, so it would be odd to name it after him. He just chose whoever was the best guy, regardless of race.

I do think that if you get in a room and have a chance to interview, you have a chance to show you belong. It's an opportunity. As a guy who's offered that opportunity, you can choose to turn it down.