Wilkins - Another surgery?
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Dr Death
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[quote=16 to 88 post_id=1291009]It was in response to what you tagged on at the end
"Even at that.... the Raiders should have won the game. They shit the bed when it counted".
Couldn't count how many times I have seen this suggested. We made a great defensive stance, made the perfect call, they fumbled, game over. Nope... here's the ball back. Make the raiders do it again.[/quote]You don't think they should have been able to do it again in such a crucial moment? That's what championship teams do. They should have had the game in hand and wrapped up before the tuck call even happened. I understand that had the call gone the way it should have, the game was over. I don't disagree with that at all. I just think the Raiders'D could have mustered up another stop to secure the game. Trust me, I wanted that game with the Steelers.
"Even at that.... the Raiders should have won the game. They shit the bed when it counted".
Couldn't count how many times I have seen this suggested. We made a great defensive stance, made the perfect call, they fumbled, game over. Nope... here's the ball back. Make the raiders do it again.[/quote]You don't think they should have been able to do it again in such a crucial moment? That's what championship teams do. They should have had the game in hand and wrapped up before the tuck call even happened. I understand that had the call gone the way it should have, the game was over. I don't disagree with that at all. I just think the Raiders'D could have mustered up another stop to secure the game. Trust me, I wanted that game with the Steelers.
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Attyla
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[quote=Dr Death post_id=1291023]You don't think they should have been able to do it again in such a crucial moment? That's what championship teams do. They should have had the game in hand and wrapped up before the tuck call even happened. I understand that had the call gone the way it should have, the game was over. I don't disagree with that at all. I just think the Raiders'D could have mustered up another stop to secure the game. Trust me, I wanted that game with the Steelers. [/quote]playoff football, you don't keep it close and rely on your defense to get the job done. You press on offense, even with the weather conditions. Gruden was always conservative on offense but that game he went way way too conservative. I get it that he did not want to risk turning over the ball at a critical moment but it was the playoffs and anything can happen so you press on offense and put the game out of reach. He did not do that and it cost us the game. That would have made the tuck a nonissue.
This was not the 70's or early 80's when your defense could literally smother the other team, the rules set up the offense to win games. That was what we could have done, that is what we did not do.
[/quote]playoff football, you don't keep it close and rely on your defense to get the job done. You press on offense, even with the weather conditions. Gruden was always conservative on offense but that game he went way way too conservative. I get it that he did not want to risk turning over the ball at a critical moment but it was the playoffs and anything can happen so you press on offense and put the game out of reach. He did not do that and it cost us the game. That would have made the tuck a nonissue. This was not the 70's or early 80's when your defense could literally smother the other team, the rules set up the offense to win games. That was what we could have done, that is what we did not do.
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16 to 88
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[quote=Dr Death post_id=1291023]You don't think they should have been able to do it again in such a crucial moment? That's what championship teams do. They should have had the game in hand and wrapped up before the tuck call even happened. I understand that had the call gone the way it should have, the game was over. I don't disagree with that at all. I just think the Raiders'D could have mustered up another stop to secure the game. Trust me, I wanted that game with the Steelers. [/quote]Whether you, I or any other football fan (not just our team) likes it or not, the atrocious and inept officiating that the NFL trots out there every year is a part of the game. Unfortunately for us as fans, the worst part.
Owner, front office, HC, assistant coaches, players and the officiating all play a hand in it. But I would contend that on game day the officiating plays a big hand in it. Ever notice every HC in the league past and present constantly in the refs faces yelling and screaming and complaining about the calls? That speaks volumes. It's important to make a distinction here as this wasn't some possible missed holding call that kept the drive alive. We made the right defensive call so much so it created a fumble that we recovered.
Game.
But wait! They charged over to the sideline and found what they deemed as disputable evidence and overturned the original call on the field. Which of course is poppycock. Here, have the ball back and make the raiders stop them again. The game was won right there. Great call, we had everybody covered defensively, Brady had nowhere to throw, brought the ball back down, put his left hand on it, FUMBLE! We recovered. If one wants to throw around the terminology "playoff football", that was playoff football right there. Well, playoff football that was taken away from us.
The officials penalized us for making a great defensive stand. We shouldn't have to continually stop an opponent because of bias officiating. What's the point in playing the game in the first place if the officials on the field are favoring one team. The game is supposed to be between the two teams with unbiased officiating. So now it's up to us every game to overcome our opponent and the officiating!? That's convoluted reasoning. Which is precisely what we have been doing for the last 60+ years.
Sorry, the best team doesn't always win the game. We won that game right then and there only to have the officiating pick up the ball that give it back to our opponents. That was a great call. We didn't just stuff them we had everyone covered and caused a fumble on that play. The officials fucked the coaches and the players who work so hard all season long and left there broken bones and torn muscles on the field for an entire season. Shameful as shameful gets. To dismiss that as, "oh, we needed to stop them again" is a really horrible take that I can never get on board with.
And let's stop with all this it's our fault because if we would have dominated/scored more points blah, blah, blah silliness. Yeah, we should win every game a 100 to nothing! Pie in the sky. Even if we would have advanced there was no guarantee that we would have won a bowl. As it turned out the Patriots were no slouches and something tells me they would have bounced back just fine and won multiple SB's. And that's the whole point of this all. Again, you shouldn't have to battle an opponent like the Patriots and the bias officiating . Let's not forget, Walt Coleman never worked another Raider football game after that. Which to my knowledge is unheard of. That speaks volumes in and of itself.
[/quote]Whether you, I or any other football fan (not just our team) likes it or not, the atrocious and inept officiating that the NFL trots out there every year is a part of the game. Unfortunately for us as fans, the worst part. Owner, front office, HC, assistant coaches, players and the officiating all play a hand in it. But I would contend that on game day the officiating plays a big hand in it. Ever notice every HC in the league past and present constantly in the refs faces yelling and screaming and complaining about the calls? That speaks volumes. It's important to make a distinction here as this wasn't some possible missed holding call that kept the drive alive. We made the right defensive call so much so it created a fumble that we recovered.
Game.
But wait! They charged over to the sideline and found what they deemed as disputable evidence and overturned the original call on the field. Which of course is poppycock. Here, have the ball back and make the raiders stop them again. The game was won right there. Great call, we had everybody covered defensively, Brady had nowhere to throw, brought the ball back down, put his left hand on it, FUMBLE! We recovered. If one wants to throw around the terminology "playoff football", that was playoff football right there. Well, playoff football that was taken away from us.
The officials penalized us for making a great defensive stand. We shouldn't have to continually stop an opponent because of bias officiating. What's the point in playing the game in the first place if the officials on the field are favoring one team. The game is supposed to be between the two teams with unbiased officiating. So now it's up to us every game to overcome our opponent and the officiating!? That's convoluted reasoning. Which is precisely what we have been doing for the last 60+ years.
Sorry, the best team doesn't always win the game. We won that game right then and there only to have the officiating pick up the ball that give it back to our opponents. That was a great call. We didn't just stuff them we had everyone covered and caused a fumble on that play. The officials fucked the coaches and the players who work so hard all season long and left there broken bones and torn muscles on the field for an entire season. Shameful as shameful gets. To dismiss that as, "oh, we needed to stop them again" is a really horrible take that I can never get on board with.
And let's stop with all this it's our fault because if we would have dominated/scored more points blah, blah, blah silliness. Yeah, we should win every game a 100 to nothing! Pie in the sky. Even if we would have advanced there was no guarantee that we would have won a bowl. As it turned out the Patriots were no slouches and something tells me they would have bounced back just fine and won multiple SB's. And that's the whole point of this all. Again, you shouldn't have to battle an opponent like the Patriots and the bias officiating . Let's not forget, Walt Coleman never worked another Raider football game after that. Which to my knowledge is unheard of. That speaks volumes in and of itself.
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Attyla
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lot of words. But your last paragraph was the prize. Nobody said 100 to nothing. They said we took our foot off the gas in a fucking playoff game. You do not do that when the game is within reach. Gruden did though. That cost us the game. Blame the officiating all you want but when we had the chance to make a statement, he broke rule one of playoff football. You do not leave it to chance or the officials. You keep pressing.
So feel free to tell us again how it is everyone's fault but our own. We made the choice to cruise in a one score game. That is simply foolish.
Oh and this is the same guy who kept that motherfucker over the greatest of all time because his ego could not handle it.
So feel free to tell us again how it is everyone's fault but our own. We made the choice to cruise in a one score game. That is simply foolish.
Oh and this is the same guy who kept that motherfucker over the greatest of all time because his ego could not handle it.
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raiderboyron
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"Let's not forget, Walt Coleman never worked another Raider football game after that. Which to my knowledge is unheard of. That speaks volumes in and of itself.'
NFL version of Witness Protection Program.
NFL version of Witness Protection Program.
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srv5490
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The refs fucked us in that game, and we could have overcome it if Gruden didn't get too conservative at the end. Both things are equally true, and they both had to happen for us to lose that game.
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- Vercingetorix
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16 to 88
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[quote=Attyla post_id=1291031]That cost us the game.[/quote]No it didn't. lol? 1:47 seconds left in the game when we recovered that football.
Game over.
Great play, great call, so good it caused a fumble and sealed the game for us. "playoff football".
Wait a minute. Nope! Let's give it back to the patriots for another try.
Walt Coleman never worked another raider game. What part about that is escaping you?
The Patriots should have scored more points and stopped us earlier in the game so they didn't need that call. See how that works? A lot of times these games come down to a moment. We succeeded in that moment with 1:47 seconds left. That was game. No I don't agree with you it was our fault. That's called victim blaming. The refs screwed us. Wag the dog all you want but everybody saw what they did. Except you apparently.
See my post above. The pats should have blown us out that way they didn't need a fake call to help them out. Again, see how that works? Just so you know, the refs are part of the game too, and they have a job to do which is not fuck up the game with there bias. But that's exactly what they did. Attyla, they are no angels. It's not the first time they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. See my avatar.
THE FUCKING REFS MADE A HORRIBLE CALL WITH 1:47 LEFT IN THE GAME THAT SEALED IT FOR US THAT EVEN TOM BRADY KNEW THEY GOT AWAY WITH!!!
But somehow, per your usual, you always let the officials off the hook. Like it or not Attyla, they are a part of the game too. And a big part of it. In stark contrast you have pointed the finger at everyone BUT the officials. It's fucking wild.
Game over.
Great play, great call, so good it caused a fumble and sealed the game for us. "playoff football".
Wait a minute. Nope! Let's give it back to the patriots for another try.
That's easy! They earned that shit Attyla.Blame the officiating all you want
Walt Coleman never worked another raider game. What part about that is escaping you?
Ah! But that works two ways. It doesn't just work one way. I can play this game as well...but when we had the chance to make a statement, he broke rule one of playoff football.
The Patriots should have scored more points and stopped us earlier in the game so they didn't need that call. See how that works? A lot of times these games come down to a moment. We succeeded in that moment with 1:47 seconds left. That was game. No I don't agree with you it was our fault. That's called victim blaming. The refs screwed us. Wag the dog all you want but everybody saw what they did. Except you apparently.
But's it okay if the patriots do? Again, this works two ways. It's not just a one way street.You do not leave it to chance or the officials.
See my post above. The pats should have blown us out that way they didn't need a fake call to help them out. Again, see how that works? Just so you know, the refs are part of the game too, and they have a job to do which is not fuck up the game with there bias. But that's exactly what they did. Attyla, they are no angels. It's not the first time they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. See my avatar.
I would be happy too.So feel free to tell us again how it is everyone's fault but our own.
THE FUCKING REFS MADE A HORRIBLE CALL WITH 1:47 LEFT IN THE GAME THAT SEALED IT FOR US THAT EVEN TOM BRADY KNEW THEY GOT AWAY WITH!!!But somehow, per your usual, you always let the officials off the hook. Like it or not Attyla, they are a part of the game too. And a big part of it. In stark contrast you have pointed the finger at everyone BUT the officials. It's fucking wild.
Irrelevant. I'm no fan of Gruden either, when Gruden was asked about the fumble he took the high road instead of berate the officiating. Charles Woodson in stark contrast didn't mince words. "BULLSHIT"! I'll take Charles Woodson over you.Oh and this is the same guy who kept that motherfucker over the greatest of all time because his ego could not handle it.
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16 to 88
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[quote=raiderboyron post_id=1291032]"Let's not forget, Walt Coleman never worked another Raider football game after that. Which to my knowledge is unheard of. That speaks volumes in and of itself.'
NFL version of Witness Protection Program.[/quote]I'm thinking it was more like Al Davis telling all the owners he will not work another raider game. They could have assigned him to one of our road games but that never happened either. The fact that an active NFL official never worked another teams game after such a bias debacle is an eye opener to but it mildly.
I believe he was in the league another 10-15 years and never worked another one of our games!
NFL version of Witness Protection Program.[/quote]I'm thinking it was more like Al Davis telling all the owners he will not work another raider game. They could have assigned him to one of our road games but that never happened either. The fact that an active NFL official never worked another teams game after such a bias debacle is an eye opener to but it mildly.
I believe he was in the league another 10-15 years and never worked another one of our games!
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Sold My Soul
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[quote=16 to 88 post_id=1291042]No it didn't. lol? 1:47 seconds left in the game when we recovered that football.
Game over.
Great play, great call, so good it caused a fumble and sealed the game for us. "playoff football".
Wait a minute. Nope! Let's give it back to the patriots for another try.
That's easy! They earned that shit Attyla.
Walt Coleman never worked another raider game. What part about that is escaping you?
Ah! But that works two ways. It doesn't just work one way. I can play this game as well...
The Patriots should have scored more points and stopped us earlier in the game so they didn't need that call. See how that works? A lot of times these games come down to a moment. We succeeded in that moment with 1:47 seconds left. That was game. No I don't agree with you it was our fault that the refs screwed us. That's called victim blaming. Wag the dog all you want but everybody saw what they did. Except you apparently.
But's it okay if the patriots do? Again, this works two ways. It's not just a one way street.
See my post above. The pats should have blown us out that way they didn't need a fake call to help them out. Again, see how that works? Just so you know, the refs are part of the game too, and they have a job to do which is not fuck up the game with there bias. But that's exactly what they did. Attyla, they are no angels. It's not the first time they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. See my avatar.
I would be happy too.
THE FUCKING REFS MADE A HORRIBLE CALL WITH 1:47 LEFT IN THE GAME THAT SEALED IT FOR US THAT EVEN TOM BRADY KNEW THEY GOT AWAY WITH!!!
But somehow, per your usual, you always let the officials off the hook. Like it or not Attyla, they are a part of the game too. And a big part of it. In stark contrast you have pointed the finger at everyone BUT the officials. It's fucking wild.
Irrelevant. I'm no fan of Gruden either, when Gruden was asked about the fumble he took the high road instead of berate the officiating. Charles Woodson in stark contrast didn't mince words. "BULLSHIT"! I'll take Charles Woodson over you.[/quote]It get's so fucking old listening to the Gru haters.....Had it not been for Gru...Raiders would never have gotten that far....
Pathetic.
Game over.
Great play, great call, so good it caused a fumble and sealed the game for us. "playoff football".
Wait a minute. Nope! Let's give it back to the patriots for another try.
That's easy! They earned that shit Attyla.
Walt Coleman never worked another raider game. What part about that is escaping you?
Ah! But that works two ways. It doesn't just work one way. I can play this game as well...
The Patriots should have scored more points and stopped us earlier in the game so they didn't need that call. See how that works? A lot of times these games come down to a moment. We succeeded in that moment with 1:47 seconds left. That was game. No I don't agree with you it was our fault that the refs screwed us. That's called victim blaming. Wag the dog all you want but everybody saw what they did. Except you apparently.
But's it okay if the patriots do? Again, this works two ways. It's not just a one way street.
See my post above. The pats should have blown us out that way they didn't need a fake call to help them out. Again, see how that works? Just so you know, the refs are part of the game too, and they have a job to do which is not fuck up the game with there bias. But that's exactly what they did. Attyla, they are no angels. It's not the first time they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. See my avatar.
I would be happy too.
THE FUCKING REFS MADE A HORRIBLE CALL WITH 1:47 LEFT IN THE GAME THAT SEALED IT FOR US THAT EVEN TOM BRADY KNEW THEY GOT AWAY WITH!!!But somehow, per your usual, you always let the officials off the hook. Like it or not Attyla, they are a part of the game too. And a big part of it. In stark contrast you have pointed the finger at everyone BUT the officials. It's fucking wild.
Irrelevant. I'm no fan of Gruden either, when Gruden was asked about the fumble he took the high road instead of berate the officiating. Charles Woodson in stark contrast didn't mince words. "BULLSHIT"! I'll take Charles Woodson over you.[/quote]It get's so fucking old listening to the Gru haters.....Had it not been for Gru...Raiders would never have gotten that far....
Pathetic.
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Attyla
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I have never said otherwise, But he did take the foot off the gas and let the game stay close and you do not do that in playoff football ever. But he did. You do not count on your defense to win the game in the modern era of football when all the rules favor the offense. But he did. And you do not take the game out of the hands of your best players to "play it safe" when the game is close. But he did.
This has nothing to do with "hate" which is just an excuse for decades later revisiting his worst coaching job. It is based on the facts. So cram that "hate" talk up your ass and man up and be able to take off the fucking Gru tinted glasses. Jesus, you are wanting Gru back so bad you fell for the worst click bait article ever and posted it up here.
This has nothing to do with "hate" which is just an excuse for decades later revisiting his worst coaching job. It is based on the facts. So cram that "hate" talk up your ass and man up and be able to take off the fucking Gru tinted glasses. Jesus, you are wanting Gru back so bad you fell for the worst click bait article ever and posted it up here.
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Opoponax50
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If it was Rich Gannon that had fumbled the ball in that crucial moment but the refs didn't hand the ball back to us, we wouldn't be complaining about the refs. We'd be blaming the o-lineman that missed the block, the receiver that didn't get open, Gannon for being unaware, etc.
Nobody would've blamed the refs for calling it a fumble...
BECAUSE IT WAS A FUCKING FUMBLE.
Nobody would've blamed the refs for calling it a fumble...
BECAUSE IT WAS A FUCKING FUMBLE.
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Attyla
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I find it interesting that the rule even existed. Every owner voted in favor of a rule that had so little basis in objective interpretation and was going to be one of the most subjectively interpreted in the book.
That said, it is easier to blame the refs than to blame ourselves for not putting the game out of reach when we could. We were that good and we were better than the Patriots at that time and it was not even close, We were only on the road because we dropped three that we should have won to end the season.
But this painful stroll down memory lane does little good because the two sides in this discussion are totally entrenched. The conversation ends up with angry people. We lost and that may be the closest I get to a ring before I depart this world.
That said, it is easier to blame the refs than to blame ourselves for not putting the game out of reach when we could. We were that good and we were better than the Patriots at that time and it was not even close, We were only on the road because we dropped three that we should have won to end the season.
But this painful stroll down memory lane does little good because the two sides in this discussion are totally entrenched. The conversation ends up with angry people. We lost and that may be the closest I get to a ring before I depart this world.
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raider_kin
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[quote=Attyla post_id=1291067] We were only on the road because we dropped three that we should have won to end the season.
[/quote]Gruden's classic MO: lose in December.
[/quote]Gruden's classic MO: lose in December.
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Attyla
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[quote=raider_kin post_id=1291068]Gruden's classic MO: lose in December.[/quote]It was frustrating as hell. We should have curb stomped the Jets and Titans at the very least. And we proved we could have dusted off the Jets the very next game when we beat the shit out of them.
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Oaktown Superman
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Why is there arguing over a play that happened when Methuselah was a teenager?
-- Sun Jul 06, 2025 6:37 am --
Oh, that play happened when Wilkins broke his foot, right?
-- Sun Jul 06, 2025 6:37 am --
Oh, that play happened when Wilkins broke his foot, right?